The web access is especially aggravating to me personally. A BBS should not be also a website, in my opinion. I know, many feel otherwise. To
me it "defeats the purpose" of running a BBS. If you want to run a website, then run a website, not a BBS. It takes away the "privacy" of
a traditional BBS.
If I remember correctly this started long ago with Docs Place BBS and maybe a few others that wanted a "global" BBS. I've come to accept that but for me its the Othernets getting a bit tiresome... same people, same noise, nothing new.
I think encouraging new sysops not to partake in Gert's networks (if you can even get him to respond) would be a good start. IMHO.
Allen Prunty was the last elected moderator of this area. I don't know
what has become of him but I don't think he had any probationary sysops hanging around.
Huh, I thought this was a sysop only group. If it's not, my bad. Maybe explains the dwindling node numbers then.
When I started my BBS, one of my aims was to be connected to anything and everything I could. This last month I've dropped a lot of networks. All of Gerts (Familynet, STN, Linuxnet, Gatornet, etc), Starnet and Sportsnet shut shop as did combatnet. This is something I do agree on. There's too many
Allen Prunty was the last elected moderator of this area. I don't know what has become of him but I don't think he had any probationary sysops hanging around.
Alan Ianson wrote to Dan Clough <=-
The web access is especially aggravating to me personally. A BBS should not be also a website, in my opinion. I know, many feel otherwise. To
me it "defeats the purpose" of running a BBS. If you want to run a website, then run a website, not a BBS. It takes away the "privacy" of
a traditional BBS.
What kind of "privacy" do you get on a BBS, in an echo area?
Alan Ianson wrote to Nick Andre <=-
Huh, I thought this was a sysop only group. If it's not, my bad. Maybe explains the dwindling node numbers then.
The moderator of this echo also allows a non-nodelisted "probationary Sysop" to freely participate here from his system.
Allen Prunty was the last elected moderator of this area. I don't
know what has become of him but I don't think he had any
probationary sysops hanging around.
Ward Dossche wrote to Nigel Reed <=-
Huh, I thought this was a sysop only group. If it's not, my bad. Maybe explains the dwindling node numbers then.
Over the past 20 years or more we have regurgitated that subject
over and over again.
We also know about the participants, it's not that anonymous. For
example we know that Dan Clough has nothing to say,
Nick Andre wrote to Alan Ianson <=-what
On 08 Nov 22 19:19:54, Alan Ianson said the following to Nick
Andre:
Allen Prunty was the last elected moderator of this area. I don't know
has become of him but I don't think he had any probationary sysops hanging around.
I've never heard of the term "probationary Sysop" until recently.
Ward Dossche wrote to Nigel Reed <=-
The sexyness of Fidonet has gone, some people still try to do
interesting things ... D'Bridge (of course), WinPoint, Binkd (without
it, Fidonet would already be dead), Mystic, Aftershock, Rob Swindell,
...
The sexyness of Fidonet has gone, some people still try to do interesting things ... D'Bridge (of course), WinPoint, Binkd (without it, Fidonet would already be dead), Mystic, Aftershock, Rob Swindell, ...
Fidonet's been many things to many people, but sexy?
I'm just thankful that new sysops don't need (or even can) see
this before joining up with fidonet,
Anyone can. In fact you can even read this echo anonymously on
several BBS web interfaces...
Huh, I thought this was a sysop only group. If it's not, my bad. Maybe explains the dwindling node numbers then.
Huh, I thought this was a sysop only group. If it's not, my bad. Maybe
explains the dwindling node numbers then.
The moderator of this echo also allows a non-nodelisted "probationary Sysop"
to freely participate here from his system.
MaybeHuh, I thought this was a sysop only group. If it's not, my bad.
explains the dwindling node numbers then.
The moderator of this echo also allows a non-nodelisted "probationary
Sysop" to freely participate here from his system.
Allen Prunty was the last elected moderator of this area. I don't know what
has become of him but I don't think he had any probationary sysops hanging around.
Participants own this echo. Sysops and probationary sysops alike.
As well as moderators and moderator wannabes. And Canucks.
I was the same way when I started in late '93... early '94. Nowadays there is too much supply, not enough demand. Its tempting to drop all of them here.
I think I have a reasonable mix now. Oh, I dropped WEN too, because more th
once I found I had been unsubbed from every echo without my knowledge so s that. I've actually started to get a few regular repeat callers, not sure i it's because I got rid of a lot of groups and now there's something for the to focus on. Suppose I should ask.
Carlos Navarro wrote to Nigel Reed <=-
Hi Nigel,
07 Nov 2022 20:49, you wrote to All:
I'm just thankful that new sysops don't need (or even can) see this
before joining up with fidonet,
Anyone can. In fact you can even read this echo anonymously on several
BBS web interfaces...
Carlos
--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: cyberiada point (2:341/234.1)
Anyone can. In fact you can even read this echo anonymously on
several BBS web interfaces...
Huh, I thought this was a sysop only group. If it's not, my bad.
Maybe explains the dwindling node numbers then.
It's *supposed* to be sysop-only. Unfortunately many sysops don't
bother to properly configure their echos, and don't seem to care even
when that is pointed out.
Carlos Navarro wrote to Dan Clough <=-
08 Nov 2022 20:42, you wrote to Nigel Reed:
Anyone can. In fact you can even read this echo anonymously on
several BBS web interfaces...
Huh, I thought this was a sysop only group. If it's not, my bad.
Maybe explains the dwindling node numbers then.
It's *supposed* to be sysop-only. Unfortunately many sysops don't
bother to properly configure their echos, and don't seem to care even
when that is pointed out.
I assumed that only sysops can write but anyone can read, like in
some other sysop echos (e.g. ENET.SYSOP). But I'm not sure,
cannot find the echo rules...
I assumed that only sysops can write but anyone can read, like in
some other sysop echos (e.g. ENET.SYSOP). But I'm not sure,
cannot find the echo rules...
I think that a sysop-only echo is sysop-only for both read and write.
I guess the one who could/should answer this is the ECHO MODERATOR.
Well, "privacy" isn't exactly the right word, but more like "restricted access". It's knowing that the only people reading are the others who follow that echo, via a BBS. It's the difference between that and
having ALL messages accessible to anyone via a Google web search.
Allen Prunty was the last elected moderator of this area. I don't know what has become of him but I don't think he had any
probationary sysops hanging around.
Yes he did.
Allen Prunty was the last elected moderator of this area. I don't
know what has become of him but I don't think he had any
probationary sysops hanging around.
So..... is Beeeorn *NOT* the moderator of this echo? I know he claims
to be the moderator of the FidoNews echo, but can't remember if he
thinks the same of this echo.
I think that a sysop-only echo is sysop-only for both read and write. I guess the one who could/should answer this is the ECHO MODERATOR.
I think that a sysop-only echo is sysop-only for both read and write. I
guess the one who could/should answer this is the ECHO MODERATOR.
There is no such thing as a sysop-only echo ... the moderator may name it so, but it's meaningless.
Way way back in time when animals still could talk I decided to keep ENET.SYSOP closed but quickly discovered that in Fidonet there will always be at least one participant who'll send it to a person whom does not qualify per the rules.
I stopped worrying about that and accepted the reality that no echo is restricted. You have a secret to tell? Don't use echomail, send netmail ... crash.
Nigel Reed wrote to Nick Andre <=-
All of Gerts (Familynet, STN, Linuxnet, Gatornet, etc), Starnet and Sportsnet shut up shop as did combatnet. This is something I do agree
on. There's too many othernets that don't really add any value any
more. Duplicate echoes just dilute the pool.
Ward Dossche wrote to Alan Ianson <=-
Allen Prunty seems to be doing better these days than we he previously claimed. I even notice photos of females in his neighbourhood, he seems
to be more or less OK now ...
... that is if his ailments were real ...
For several, faking illnesses is a part of attracting attention, with Allen that seemed to be the case at least ... now ...
Dan Clough wrote to Carlos Navarro <=-
I think that a sysop-only echo is sysop-only for both read and write.
I guess the one who could/should answer this is the ECHO MODERATOR.
Oh, Beeeorn..... do you hear? Can you do your job?
Or are you only the moderator when it suits your purpose, as in threatening somebody?
Alan Ianson wrote to Nick Andre <=-
Allen Prunty was the last elected moderator of this area. I don't know what has become of him but I don't think he had any probationary sysops hanging around.
In echoes that others moderate, he claims there is no such thing as moderation and there are no rules... wait, that might be his "Lee" personality that does that.
If only we could get more to call back, at least on a semi-regular
basis. I've contemplated sending email reminders but then again, I don't want to come over all "spammy". People would come back if they wanted
to, I'm sure.
Mike Powell wrote to Dan Clough <=-
I think that a sysop-only echo is sysop-only for both read and write.
I guess the one who could/should answer this is the ECHO MODERATOR.
Oh, Beeeorn..... do you hear? Can you do your job?
Or are you only the moderator when it suits your purpose, as in threatening somebody?
In echoes that others moderate, he claims there is no such thing
as moderation and there are no rules... wait, that might be his
"Lee" personality that does that.
Alan Ianson wrote to Dan Clough <=-
Well, "privacy" isn't exactly the right word, but more like "restricted access". It's knowing that the only people reading are the others who follow that echo, via a BBS. It's the difference between that and
having ALL messages accessible to anyone via a Google web search.
I can agree with that. This area should be restricted to sysops.
It was that way in the early days of this area. Some will argue
"freedom of speech" but of course we encourage freedom of speech
and try to make that possible.
An area for sysops to converse between themselves does not
restrict anyone's freedom of speech.
Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-
I think that a sysop-only echo is sysop-only for both read and write. I guess the one who could/should answer this is the ECHO MODERATOR.
There is no such thing as a sysop-only echo ... the moderator may
name it so, but it's meaningless.
Way way back in time when animals still could talk I decided to
keep ENET.SYSOP closed but quickly discovered that in Fidonet
there will always be at least one participant who'll send it to a
person whom does not qualify per the rules.
I stopped worrying about that and accepted the reality that no
echo is restricted. You have a secret to tell? Don't use
echomail, send netmail ... crash.
Summary of JamNNTPd logfile jamnntpd.log
Participants own this echo. Sysops and probationary sysops alike.
As well as moderators and moderator wannabes. And Canucks.
The troll says what?
I'm just thankful that new sysops don't need (or even can) see this
before joining up with fidonet,
Anyone can. In fact you can even read this echo anonymously on several
BBS web interfaces...
True. We can even write.
Anyone can. In fact you can even read this echo anonymously on
several BBS web interfaces...
Huh, I thought this was a sysop only group. If it's not, my bad.
Maybe explains the dwindling node numbers then.
It's *supposed* to be sysop-only. Unfortunately many sysops don't
bother to properly configure their echos, and don't seem to care even
when that is pointed out.
I assumed that only sysops can write but anyone can read, like in some other
sysop echos (e.g. ENET.SYSOP).
But I'm not sure, cannot find the echo rules...
Well, "privacy" isn't exactly the right word, but more like "restricted
access". It's knowing that the only people reading are the others who
follow that echo, via a BBS. It's the difference between that and
having ALL messages accessible to anyone via a Google web search.
I can agree with that. This area should be restricted to sysops.
It was that way in the early days of this area.
Some will argue "freedom of speech" but of course we encourage freedom of speech and try to make that possible.
An area for sysops to converse between themselves does not restrict anyone's
freedom of speech.
Allen Prunty was the last elected moderator of this area. I don't
know what has become of him but I don't think he had any
probationary sysops hanging around.
Yes he did.
The idea of a probationary sysop is a nothing burger.
You either do it or you don't.
Nick has offered you an easy path to getting nodelisted.
Take it or leave it.
Echomail is just a different flavor of netmail.
The only "rule" to become a sysop is to demonstrate
the ability to send and receive netmail.
All of us in this echo have demonstrated that ability.
Therefore, all participants in this echo hsve passed the
test and are hereby certified as Fidonet sysops.
The idea of a probationary sysop is a nothing burger.
All participants are either a sysop, or a potential sysop.
I find the term probationary sysop to be clearer, as all participants
should be welcomed even if they are not full-fledged sysops in actual practice.
You either do it or you don't.
There is no timetable as to when a participant must decide when,
if ever, to become a full-fledged sysop.
Nick has offered you an easy path to getting nodelisted.
The only "rule" or "test" that I am aware of is to demonstrate the
ability to send and receive netmail. There is no deadline to do so.
Take it or leave it.
Would you like me to send you a netmail?
I can do that.
Would you like me to read a netmail you send me?
I can do that, too.
Would that qualify me as being a Fidonet sysop?
According to the "rules" it would.
The troll says what?
GET SOME HEARING AIDS.
The idea of a probationary sysop is a nothing burger. You either do it or you don't. Nick has offered you an easy path to getting nodelisted.
So..... is Beeeorn *NOT* the moderator of this echo? I know he claims
to be the moderator of the FidoNews echo, but can't remember if he
thinks the same of this echo.
Not as far as I know.. unless I missed an election!
I did not realize that Sportsnet had shut down. Thanks for the heads-up.
Summary of JamNNTPd logfile jamnntpd.log
Somewould say JamNNTPd is as bad as web access to a BBS :)
Somewould say JamNNTPd is as bad as web access to a BBS :)
Its been down for at least several years? Bill McG had some sort of electrical
problem that torched his Synchronet system and last I heard he was trying to bring it back online.
That was ..... 2016 I think.
Summary of JamNNTPd logfile jamnntpd.log
Somewould say JamNNTPd is as bad as web access to a BBS :)
Lee Lofaso wrote to Nigel Reed <=-
There are sysops, and there are probationary sysops. Since both
groups qualify as sysops, this is a sysops only group. As recognized
by the moderator of this echo.
Lee Lofaso wrote to Nick Andre <=-
Participants own this echo. Sysops and probationary sysops alike.
As well as moderators and moderator wannabes. And Canucks.
Nigel Reed wrote to Nick Andre <=-
I've actually started to get a few regular repeat callers
John Dovey wrote to Lee Lofaso <=-
Therefore, all participants in this echo hsve passed the
test and are hereby certified as Fidonet sysops.
NO.
Therefore, all participants in this echo hsve passed the
test and are hereby certified as Fidonet sysops.
NO.
I'd love to be able to add "Fidonet Sysop Certification" to my resume. Is there a test?
On 10 Nov 22 07:11:00, Kurt Weiske said the following to John Dovey:
Therefore, all participants in this echo hsve passed the
test and are hereby certified as Fidonet sysops.
NO.
I'd love to be able to add "Fidonet Sysop Certification" to my resume. Is
there a test?
I've listed Fido as a skill on my resume... and not a probation status either.
I'd love to be able to add "Fidonet Sysop Certification" to my resume. Is there a test?
Nigel Reed wrote to Nick Andre <=-
I did have one guy who seemed to be active on the loacls but then he dropped off. He comes and goes. I guess life happens to people and bulletin boards aren't their first priority...silly people! :) ---
Nick Andre wrote to Mike Powell <=-
On 09 Nov 22 15:56:55, Mike Powell said the following to Nigel Reed:
I did not realize that Sportsnet had shut down. Thanks for the heads-up.
Its been down for at least several years? Bill McG had some sort of electrical problem that torched his Synchronet system and last I heard
he was trying to bring it back online.
That was ..... 2016 I think.
I had one that would post in the locals and also several echoes regularly.
I think COVID may have got him as he disappeared suddenly about a year ago and no longer responds to emails. He had been a user on one of my boards for 20+ years.
On 11-09-22 23:59, Nick Andre <=-
spoke to Alan Ianson about Re: Bad behaviour not wan <=-
On 09 Nov 22 13:38:39, Alan Ianson said the following to Lee Lofaso:
The time he was challenged to prove he understood what a BBS was by logging in to a board, he didn't... he just posted a message from
another stupid NNTP site in Finland. He's never called any other board. Ever.
Nigel Reed wrote to Mike Powell <=-
I had one that would post in the locals and also several echoes regularly.
I think COVID may have got him as he disappeared suddenly about a year ago and no longer responds to emails. He had been a user on one of my boards for 20+ years.
If they happened to leave a real name or email address you may be able
to track them down and find an obit if they croaked, if you're that bothered. --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
Dale Shipp wrote to Nick Andre <=-
The time he was challenged to prove he understood what a BBS was by logging in to a board, he didn't... he just posted a message from
another stupid NNTP site in Finland. He's never called any other board. Ever.
I have a record of him posting messages from 3:800/432 -- probability
in 2003.
  I know. Those "some" have not tried it. It's written by an old FTN developer, so it's totally unlike the old NNTP servers, that those
"some" probably *think* it is.
Somewould say JamNNTPd is as bad as web access to a BBS :)
Some would say JamNNTP is not even a BBS...
I'd say message exchange via JamNNTP is a different kind of
Board, focused on messaging.
I'd say message exchange via JamNNTP is a different kind of
Board, focused on messaging.
And let's not focus too much on JamNNTP alone ... there's also the Telegram-platform that no-one worries about ...
I find it rather interesting how all these technologies bind together.
The time he was challenged to prove he understood what a BBS was by logging in to a board, he didn't... he just posted a message from another stupid NNTP site in Finland.
OK, we are down 97.5% from around 1995 ... just saying
that if yelling and bad words would be a contributing
factor the light would have been switched-off a long time
ago ...
I'd say message exchange via JamNNTP is a different kind of
Board, focused on messaging.
And let's not focus too much on JamNNTP alone ... there's also the Telegram-platform that no-one worries about ...
I find it rather interesting how all these technologies bind together.
Well, "privacy" isn't exactly the right word, but more like
"restricted access". It's knowing that the only people reading
are the others who follow that echo, via a BBS. It's the
difference between that and having ALL messages accessible to
anyone via a Google web search.
I can agree with that. This area should be restricted to sysops.
There is no such thing as a sysop-only echo ... the moderator may name
it so, but it's meaningless.
Way way back in time when animals still could talk I decided to keep ENET.SYSOP closed but quickly discovered that in Fidonet there will
always be at least one participant who'll send it to a person whom
does not qualify per the rules.
And THAT migration happened fast!
I can agree with that. This area should be restricted to sysops.
For writing? Or also for reading?
Way way back in time when animals still could talk I decided to keep CN>WD> ENET.SYSOP closed but quickly discovered that in Fidonet there will CN>WD> always be at least one participant who'll send it to a person whom CN>WD> does not qualify per the rules.
When was that?
I can agree with that. This area should be restricted to sysops.
For writing? Or also for reading?
I can agree with that. This area should be restricted to sysops.
For writing? Or also for reading?
And how would you prevent the reading for non-nodelisted sysops?
I gave up on that a long time ago. If you write something in echomail, it's into the wild and you have no khontrol, even routed metmail. You still have the idiots that love to read everything in-transit...
The time he was challenged to prove he understood what a BBS was by logging
in to a board, he didn't... he just posted a message from another stupid
NNTP site in Finland.
How many stupid NNTP sites there are in Finland? I don't know any.
If they happened to leave a real name or email address you may be able to track them down and find an obit if they croaked, if you're that bothered.
It's not about Khontrol, it's simply a place for sysops to discuss what they want to discuss with other sysops.
Alan,
It's not about Khontrol, it's simply a place for sysops to discuss what
they want to discuss with other sysops.
It's a BBS thing ... I run a node and an editor, sysops can link in if they so desire...
Not wanting to mention zones but BBS-ing is not core anymore to operations here. One time I had one and then I lost interest, it was just more of what was already available elsewhere.
How's the snow?
When was that?
Somewhere the mid-90-ies, after I became ZC.
ENET.SYSOP was absolutely restricted, but how do you restrict an echo-conference with a theoretical membership of around 8.000
sysops...
If my memory serves me correctly it was available on a read-only
basis, at least for zone-2 points, in the early 90s.
I can agree with that. This area should be restricted to sysops.
For writing? Or also for reading?
For reading and writing.
This area is for sysop's to discuss between themselves whatever it
might be that thay want to discuss.
I'm not sure where this read only idea comes from but when this area
was created all those years ago it was setup that way.
Carlos Navarro wrote to Alan Ianson <=-
This area is for sysop's to discuss between themselves whatever it
might be that thay want to discuss.
Indeed. But it can be a "sysop echo" or a "sysop only echo" depending
on its rules...
I'm not sure where this read only idea comes from but when this area
was created all those years ago it was setup that way.
Perhaps that was FIDO_SYSOP? (Just asking, I don't really know.)
I gave up on that a long time ago. If you write something in echomail,
it's into the wild and you have no khontrol, even routed metmail. You still
have the idiots that love to read everything in-transit...
It's not about Khontrol, it's simply a place for sysops to discuss what they want to discuss with other sysops.
When sysops are sneeking to meet, notably as secret lovers, it is
called a *tryst*. Do you understand what the origin of the word is?
I understand the word but you are using it incorrectly. We are not lovers or sneaking anything.
Ward Dossche wrote to Alan Ianson <=-
When sysops are sneeking to meet, notably as secret lovers, it is
called a *tryst*. Do you understand what the origin of the word is?
I understand the word but you are using it incorrectly. We are not lovers or sneaking anything.
You got it wrong, Lee was talking about 'sneeking', not 'sneaking' ... surely there must be a difference ...
You got it wrong, Lee was talking about 'sneeking', not 'sneaking' AI>WD> ... surely there must be a difference ...
Yes, he "snuck" that one in on me.
Lee Lofaso wrote to Alan Ianson <=-
What you are suggesting is for sysops to have meetings in secret.
Where only they can play. With nobody else around.
Alan Ianson wrote to Ward Dossche <=-
And how would you prevent the reading for non-nodelisted sysops?
It needs to be setup that way. It is setup that way here. I have a web interface that anyone can read (and write, if they log in) but this
area and a couple others don't show up there.
It's not about Khontrol, it's simply a place for sysops to discuss what they want to discuss with other sysops.
It's not about Khontrol, it's simply a place for sysops to discuss what they want to discuss with other sysops.
If my memory serves me correctly it was available on a read-only
basis, at least for zone-2 points, in the early 90s.
That matches my memory. Under Ron Dwight, it was available for read by
Z2 points.
It's not about Khontrol, it's simply a place for sysops to discuss what
they want to discuss with other sysops.
In a way I agree with you. It's not good to show our BBS users how
despicably bad some sysops act on a regular basis. But then again, it's just as bad in the open echoes, only there you usually don't know who are sysops.
Some returnees here on my BBS have left again, saying "I thought it was bad when I left, now it's been getting even worse".
The subject line still is very relevant...
That matches my memory. Under Ron Dwight, it was available for
read by Z2 points.
I have a poor memory but I remember that my boss was a bit reluctant
at first, when I asked him for a link to ENET.SYSOP :-)
What despicably bad sysops?
Indeed. But it can be a "sysop echo" or a "sysop only echo"
depending on its rules...
Yep, this area is (or was) sysop only.
I'm not sure where this read only idea comes from but when this
area was created all those years ago it was setup that way.
Perhaps that was FIDO_SYSOP? (Just asking, I don't really know.)
This is the original sysop echo. FIDO_SYSOP came a little later.
FIDO_SYSOP was created by a russian node and was private distribution
in it's easrly days.
It's a BBS thing ... I run a node and an editor, sysops can link in
if they so desire...
True, on a BBS you need to set permissions. If you are operating a
node there is no need.
I have a poor memory but I remember that my boss was a bit
reluctant at first, when I asked him for a link to ENET.SYSOP :-)
I did not have to ask mine, I could simply areafix it. ;-)
It's not about Khontrol, it's simply a place for sysops to discuss what
they want to discuss with other sysops.
Yes, it is. There is absolutely no doubt it is about Khontrol.
What Khontrol is it that you speak of?
A meeting is when people get together for any reason. An echo is
an area for people to get together, for any reason. You have stated
yourself this is such an echo - a place for sysops to discuss what
they want to discuss with other sysops.
So far, so good. That is a concept I believe all can agree on.
Good.
But that is not the question.
I see a deflection coming on.
What you are suggesting is for sysops to have meetings in secret.
Where only they can play. With nobody else around.
We are not meeting in secret. We are having a discussion amongst ourselves.
When sysops are sneeking to meet, notably as secret lovers, it is
called a *tryst*. Do you understand what the origin of the word is?
I understand the word but you are using it incorrectly. We are not lovers or
sneaking anything.
The word comes from Middle English, and originally referred to a
designated hunting station.
There is no hunt.
But every time they try to gather, somebody lets the sunshine in,
and we all know what happens next.
No, the echo is leaking. You are not the first leak and you won't be the last.
Seriously? Did you miss all of it? Like wishing cancer and even death up another sysop and all the other insults after it was pointed out that we suddenly had a duplicate net in our nodelist?
Bj”rn Felten wrote to Alan Ianson <=-
What despicably bad sysops?
Seriously? Did you miss all of it? Like wishing cancer and
even death upon another sysop and all the other insults after it
was pointed out that we suddenly had a duplicate net in our
nodelist?
I'd say message exchange via JamNNTP is a different kind of
Board, focused on messaging.
And let's not focus too much on JamNNTP alone ... there's also the Telegram-platform that no-one worries about ...
I find it rather interesting how all these technologies bind together.
Lee Lofaso wrote to Alan Ianson <=-
Yes, it is. There is absolutely no doubt it is about Khontrol.
What Khontrol is it that you speak of?
Only the kind that fools believe.
What despicably bad sysops?
Seriously? Did you miss all of it? Like wishing cancer and even death upon another sysop and all the other insults after it was pointed out that we suddenly had a duplicate net in our nodelist?
This is the original sysop echo. FIDO_SYSOP came a little later.
Ah yes, I found FN_SYSOP in an areafix list from an uplink I had, dated
1995. I think I didn't have it linked (at least for long), I guess it had
too much traffic for me back then...
BTW there was also SYSOP ...
True, on a BBS you need to set permissions. If you are operating a
node there is no need.
Yes, if you have points. ;-)
Yes, it is. There is absolutely no doubt it is about Khontrol.
What Khontrol is it that you speak of?
Only the kind that fools believe.
I see a deflection coming on.
Not at all.
With others present. Which is what your gripe is, and of which
you have been unable to explain why.
Nigel Reed wrote to All <=-
And let's not focus too much on JamNNTP alone ... there's also the Telegram-platform that no-one worries about ...
I find it rather interesting how all these technologies bind together.
I was against Telegram integration to start with and I still
can't say I'm happy with it, but then again, I don't use the
echoes that are connected to it, so in the end it really doesn't
matter.
complete and utter clusterf**k. Effectively not readable
due to format mangling, lack of quoting, and general
stupidity.
August Abolins wrote to Dan Clough <=-
complete and utter clusterf**k. Effectively not readable
due to format mangling, lack of quoting, and general
stupidity.
You keep ignoring the fact that your first instance of a
complaint in LITRGP was based on a quoting issue due to
Aftershock, and not Tg. I agree with your latter point though;
since your participation, stupidity has emerged.
I don't know (or care) what Aftershock is,...
..the end result is: The echo is trashed..
I don't know (or care) what Aftershock is,
August Abolins wrote to Dan Clough <=-
I don't know (or care) what Aftershock is,...
Noted.
..the end result is: The echo is trashed..
All the posts from YOUR system don't even use the "traditional"
quoting with the intials. Why not try to conform to the
"tradition" that you speak of yourself.
Carlos Navarro wrote to Dan Clough <=-
17 nov 2022 07:54, Dan Clough -> August Abolins
I don't know (or care) what Aftershock is,
AfterShock is a FTN point package for Android that integrates
mailer (binkp), tosser and editor. Netmail is stored as *.msg,
echomail in Squish format.
So it's sort of "traditional"...
AfterShock is a FTN point package for Android that integrates
mailer (binkp), tosser and editor. Netmail is stored as *.msg,
echomail in Squish format.
So it's sort of "traditional"...
Perhaps it is, but the output it produces is garbage.
Baloney. I just looked at my message that you replied to here, and it's ..
I guess your mobile garbage is more broken then previously thought.
Carlos Navarro wrote to Dan Clough <=-
AfterShock is a FTN point package for Android that integrates
mailer (binkp), tosser and editor. Netmail is stored as *.msg,
echomail in Squish format.
So it's sort of "traditional"...
Perhaps it is, but the output it produces is garbage.
Please give me some example, to check what you mean. Echo and
MSGID or datetime of message...
august abolins wrote to Dan Clough <=-..
Baloney. I just looked at my message that you replied to here, and it's
You need to study ALL the messages originating from you system.
RF's quoted messages do not bear any initials at all, for
example.
I guess your mobile garbage is more broken then previously thought.
Your system seems to reveal its own issues.
The issue is not with my system. ...
Perhaps it is, but the output it produces is garbage.
Please give me some example, to check what you mean. Echo and
MSGID or datetime of message...
The Fidonet "RPG Literature" echo is the only place that I see
frequent use of Aftershock/Telegram. Nearly any message in there is a good example.
This is quoted text...====
Carlos Navarro wrote to Dan Clough <=-
The Fidonet "RPG Literature" echo is the only place that I see
frequent use of Aftershock/Telegram. Nearly any message in there is a good example.
After a quick glance at LITRPG the only messages with bad quotes
I find are some from John Dovey, replies to you or to Richard
Falken.
Those have quotes like this:
====
This is quoted text...
====
instead of:
====
This is quoted text...
====
Is that what you meant?
I think I know why it is (sometimes) happenning. I'll report this
to Aftershock's developer.
I think I know why it is (sometimes) happenning. I'll report this to Aftershock's developer.
I think I know why it is (sometimes) happenning. I'll report this
to Aftershock's developer.
I have report it to Anatoly.
18 Nov 2022 19:57, you wrote to me:
I think I know why it is (sometimes) happenning. I'll report this
to Aftershock's developer.
I have report it to Anatoly.
Ok, anyway I'm reporting this in the AFTERSHOCK echo with more info about the issue.
Carlos
Yes, that's one type. Also some wrapping / linelength issues, which
could be just poor configuration by the user.
I think I know why it is (sometimes) happenning. I'll report this
to Aftershock's developer.
Well that's excellent, thanks.
It's supposed to be sysop-only. Unfortunately many sysops don't
bother to properly configure their echos, and don't seem to care even
when that is pointed out. The web interface is another way it becomes public, and find-able in search engines. Again, because of poor configuration by sysops, either through ignorance, or willful disregard.
The web access is especially aggravating to me personally. A BBS should not be also a website, in my opinion. I know, many feel otherwise. To
me it "defeats the purpose" of running a BBS. If you want to run a website, then run a website, not a BBS. It takes away the "privacy" of
a traditional BBS.
I have no problem with a BBS running a web interface. Time moves on and technology evolves. It's one way to keep the BBS scene alive. The same access levels apply to the echoes available on my website as through the BBS so there's really no loss/gain there. I don't have ssh/telnet access from work so the web interface is a good way for me to connect to my BBS.
how many people read fidonet on the web? ;)
how many people read fidonet on the web? ;)
Daniel PATH wrote to Nigel Reed <=-
I have no problem with a BBS running a web interface. Time moves on and technology evolves. It's one way to keep the BBS scene alive. The same access levels apply to the echoes available on my website as through the BBS so there's really no loss/gain there. I don't have ssh/telnet access from work so the web interface is a good way for me to connect to my BBS.
how many people read fidonet on the web? ;)
Back when Doc's Place went down for a while, a year or two ago, there were several displaced readers of the COOKING echo that were looking for a new
Re: Bad behaviour not wanted.
By: Daniel PATH to Nigel Reed on Wed Nov 09 2022 18:43:21
how many people read fidonet on the web? ;)
I don't know, why don't you go count them?
* Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (1:124/5016)
how many people read fidonet on the web? ;)
There is at least one or two that constantly look for access to the Z1C echo.
Nice guy... except when he would spam every freaking echo once a year or so.
http://endofthelinebbs.com/?page=001-forum.ssjs&group=7
This is one is also pretty good, +S)earch'able
https://www.ipingthereforeiam.com/bbs/msgs/
http://endofthelinebbs.com/?page=001-forum.ssjs&group=7
This is one is also pretty good, +S)earch'able
https://www.ipingthereforeiam.com/bbs/msgs/
This thing was calling my bbs every day and it was capturing the login screen. Now it is blocked to the mailer.
https://www.ipingthereforeiam.com/bbs/?view=18601
I have no problem with a BBS running a web interface. Time moves onand
technology evolves. It's one way to keep the BBS scene alive. Thesame
access levels apply to the echoes available on my website as throughthe
BBS so there's really no loss/gain there. I don't have ssh/telnetaccess
from work so the web interface is a good way for me to connect to myBBS.
how many people read fidonet on the web? ;)
What you are suggesting is for sysops to have meetings in secret.
Where only they can play. With nobody else around.
Why is that a problem?
Lee Lofaso wrote to Mike Powell <=-
What you are suggesting is for sysops to have meetings in secret.
Where only they can play. With nobody else around.
Why is that a problem?
Not everybody agrees with Vladimir Putin. Or with Mike Powell.
But if you adore Putin, and love secrecy, please feel free to move
to Russia. Steven Seagal did. And he loves it.
Dan, can you tell me why my ASIAN_LINK never had that? We were in the first
few, and we welcome Telegram users. There have been no issues otherthan a few
*early* ones that caused odd tear lines. They did not affectoperations and
were quickly patched by Stas.
Some areas had them. LA was one of them. The NC required a sysop 'point' for 2 years. I was south of it in net202 and happily doing boss node for 5 or 6 at a time then helping them apply. Brenda Donvan was NC202 and happy to accecpt the new nodes applying with my point address as she knew they were functional with minimal hub assist needed.
Here's a new one! WE went solar. I am told in my southerly location, it will have just enough heat to melt snow off the panels.
My system won't totally power the house year long but it will power the BBS machines and about 51% of our total use during the year.
John Dovey wrote to Carol Shenkenberger <=-
Dan, can you tell me why my ASIAN_LINK never had that? We were in the first
few, and we welcome Telegram users. There have been no issues otherthan a few
*early* ones that caused odd tear lines. They did not affectoperations and
were quickly patched by Stas.
Ignore Dan. He's been irrational on the issue of LitRPG in
general and latched onto the "but it's Telegram" argument. He
continues to claim things as true which are false, in fact which
are demonstrably the opposite to what he claims, on numerous
occasions. Don't waste any time or energy on him, just delete and
move on.
Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Dan Clough <=-
Re: Re: Bad behaviour not wanted.
By: Dan Clough to August Abolins on Thu Nov 17 2022 07:54 am
complete and utter clusterf**k. Effectively not readable
due to format mangling, lack of quoting, and general
stupidity.
You keep ignoring the fact that your first instance of a
complaint in LITRGP was based on a quoting issue due to
Aftershock, and not Tg. I agree with your latter point though;
since your participation, stupidity has emerged.
I don't know (or care) what Aftershock is, and either way, whether it's
that or TG, or both, the end result is: The echo is trashed and
basically un-useable by those using "traditional" Fidonet software /
message reading tools. Your claim that I'm stupid is just sour grapes
at being called out on it. Anyone can see that I'm telling the truth by simply trying to read messages in that group. It's that simple,
simpleton.
Dan, can you tell me why my ASIAN_LINK never had that? We were
in the first few, and we welcome Telegram users. There have been
no issues otherthan a few *early* ones that caused odd tear
lines. They did not affectoperations and were quickly patched by
Stas.
I live in a house with 2 kids who leave lights on consistently. My BBS, running on an old laptop, is a rounding error in my electrical bill.running the bbs on a gaming computer can be costly.
It's nice to fly under the radar. :)
Matt Munson wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-
I live in a house with 2 kids who leave lights on consistently. My BBS, running on an old laptop, is a rounding error in my electrical bill.
It's nice to fly under the radar. :)
running the bbs on a gaming computer can be costly.
It's not about zones really. It's about people who are reactive. Reactive to insults or percieved ones.
Well, people need to chill the f*k down. It's a hobby. People do it forYes, we should try our best not to scare people off.
the enjoyment. It's a dying hobby, nodes are doing down all the time.
Re: Re: Bad behaviour not wanted.
By: Carol Shenkenberger to Nigel Reed on Sun Dec 11 2022 13:56:32
It's not about zones really. It's about people who are reactive. Reactive
to insults or percieved ones.
Well, people need to chill the f*k down. It's a hobby. People do it for the enjoyment. It's a dying hobby, nodes are doing down all the time. This is not a good way to introduce new sysops into the world of BBSing.
Matt Munson wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-
running the bbs on a gaming computer can be costly.
"Irrational"? Haha, that's rich. What I claim is that TG and AS users trash the echos they post in, which is easily verified by just *LOOKING* at the echo with a "normal" mail reader. Mangled quoting, lack of context, lack of quoting, etc.
The troll says what?
GET SOME HEARING AIDS.
The troll says what?
Nick
Agreed. Lee Lofaso is a total troll. Always has been. don't worry to much
about it though, everyone knows it.
What you are suggesting is for sysops to have meetings in secret.
Where only they can play. With nobody else around.
Why is that a problem?
Not everybody agrees with Vladimir Putin. Or with Mike Powell.
But if you adore Putin, and love secrecy, please feel free to move
to Russia. Steven Seagal did. And he loves it.
Nor apparently with Joe Biden, who also knows that there are some government things that are not for public consumption.
But maybe Lee Lofaso is more like Donald Trump, who apparently does not understand such things and likes to make trouble.
That would make sense.
...and they have a built-in UPS.
On another benefit, when my power was out for an extended period of time..
Carlos Navarro wrote to Dan Clough <=-
11 dic 2022 18:22, Dan Clough -> John Dovey:
"Irrational"? Haha, that's rich. What I claim is that TG and AS users trash the echos they post in, which is easily verified by just *LOOKING* at the echo with a "normal" mail reader. Mangled quoting, lack of context, lack of quoting, etc.
I am not going to comment about tg_bbs (for now), but just a
clarification about AfterShock: the mangled quoting issue, that
only happened in some cases (if there were useless LF chars in
the replied-to message), was fixed in version 1.6.12.
If you find any other issue related to AfterShock, please let us
know (with an example or some info) so that we can report it to
the developer.
Lee Lofaso wrote to Mike Powell <=-
But maybe Lee Lofaso is more like Donald Trump, who apparently does not understand such things and likes to make trouble.
The entity known as Lee Lofaso is a figment of somebody's wild
and overactive imagination.
Rob Swindell wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-
I live in a house with 2 kids who leave lights on consistently. My BBS, running on an old laptop, is a rounding error in my electrical bill. It's nice to fly under the radar. :)
Not using LED bulbs? :-)
August Abolins wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-
...and they have a built-in UPS.
But it's getting increasingly expensive to replace oem
batteries from ancient laptops.
On another benefit, when my power was out for an extended period of time..
Wow. Dedication, or desperation? :D Resourcefulness for
sure!
Well it sure is good that you can at least *acknowledge* that there was
an issue, and I thank you for looking into that and getting it
corrected.
I have to wonder if some of the other folks in this thread
are seeing your messages, since they seem to think I'm "irrational"
about pointing it out; or, even more strangely, can't see it for themselves.
August Abolins wrote to Dan Clough <=-
Well it sure is good that you can at least *acknowledge* that there was
an issue, and I thank you for looking into that and getting it
corrected.
At least Carlos did something constructive. All you did was
chirp like Chicken Little and wanted all smartphone usage to
stop.
I have to wonder if some of the other folks in this thread
are seeing your messages, since they seem to think I'm "irrational"
about pointing it out; or, even more strangely, can't see it for themselves.
Your rant did come across as irrational and unsupported. ;)
I have to wonder if some of the other folks in this thread
are seeing your messages, since they seem to think I'm "irrational" AA>DC> about pointing it out; or, even more strangely, can't see it for
themselves.
Your rant did come across as irrational and unsupported. ;)
My chirping was what brought the issue to light, so it could be
corrected. I'd call that constructive, too, even if you didn't
personally like it. That's *your* problem.
Your rant did come across as irrational and unsupported. ;)
So, you're saying that a problem which was pointed out, and subsequently corrected, was "irrational and unsupported". Right. That makes a lot
of sense. Sure.
..You all just didn't want to admit there was an issue for
reasons which escape me. Let me know if you have a better
explanation, and if not..... STFU.
Well it sure is good that you can at least *acknowledge* that there was an issue, and I thank you for looking into that and getting it
corrected. I have to wonder if some of the other folks in this thread are seeing your messages, since they seem to think I'm "irrational"
about pointing it out; or, even more strangely, can't see it for themselves.
Yeah, I'm talking about you, John Dovey.
John Dovey wrote to Dan Clough <=-
Well it sure is good that you can at least *acknowledge* that there was
an issue, and I thank you for looking into that and getting it
corrected. I have to wonder if some of the other folks in this thread
are seeing your messages, since they seem to think I'm "irrational"
about pointing it out; or, even more strangely, can't see it for themselves.
Yeah, I'm talking about you, John Dovey.
When we were exploring the reasons and extent of the problem,
you insisted on more than one occasion that it was "proof" of the
TG gateway being at fault, so yes.
I stand by my irrational comment.
GFY
Meanwhile the user with the initials RF on your system still
continues to use a non-initial quote setting on YOUR system and
that counters to one of your complaints that some messages in
LITRPG didn't have "proper quoting". And THAT problem is
originating at your system. ;)
Well it sure is good that you can at least *acknowledge* that there
was an issue, and I thank you for looking into that and getting it
corrected.
I have to wonder if some of the other folks in this
thread are seeing your messages, since they seem to think I'm
"irrational" about pointing it out; or, even more strangely, can't see
it for themselves.
If you find any other issue related to AfterShock, please let us
know (with an example or some info) so that we can report it to
the developer.
I will do that.
"Irrational"? Haha, that's rich. What I claim is that TG and AS=== /Cut ===
=== /Cut ==="Irrational"? Haha, that's rich. What I claim is that TG and AS
Carlos Navarro wrote to Dan Clough <=-
13 Dec 2022 20:56, you wrote to me:
Well it sure is good that you can at least *acknowledge* that there
was an issue, and I thank you for looking into that and getting it
corrected.
You're welcome. Just trying to help improve it now that its
developer is working on it again after some years.
I have to wonder if some of the other folks in this
thread are seeing your messages, since they seem to think I'm
"irrational" about pointing it out; or, even more strangely, can't see
it for themselves.
I wouldn't say you're "irrational". But I think you're wrong when
you mix AfterShock and tg_BBS as if they were the same thing,
just because both are mostly used on mobile devices.
AfterShock is a "normal" mail reader, a FTN package just like
e.g. FrontDoor/APX or WinPoint, but for Android.
The Telegram BBS/gateway is something completely different thing
that, I agree, has some issues. Some of them can be fixed (I've
reported one recently), but others... not sure.
BTW I've noticed that your editor has issues with quoting: it
doesn't append the ">" to previously quoted text. See your
message, the one I'm replying to:
=== Cut ===
"Irrational"? Haha, that's rich. What I claim is that TG and AS
=== /Cut ===
It should have been:
=== Cut ===
"Irrational"? Haha, that's rich. What I claim is that TG and AS=== /Cut ===
Yeah, I'm talking about you, John Dovey.
When we were exploring the reasons and extent of the problem, you
insisted on more than one occasion that it was "proof" of the TG gateway being at fault, so yes. I stand by my irrational comment.
Carlos Navarro wrote to Dan Clough <=-
=== Cut ===
"Irrational"? Haha, that's rich. What I claim is that TG and AS
=== /Cut ===
It should have been:
=== Cut ===
"Irrational"? Haha, that's rich. What I claim is that TG and AS=== /Cut ===
Since "DC" is "Dan Clough," aren't they both correct?
I am using the latest MultiMail release (or close to it!) and that is
how it applied the quotes to your message... "CN>" is you, and "DC>"
is Dan.
Yes, I see that. It (MultiMail) does do the first quote, but indeed
does not "increment" the quoting on later replies. I will report that
on the git project for this software, and hopefully the author will
take note and correct.
Carlos Navarro wrote to Dan Clough <=-
Yes, I see that. It (MultiMail) does do the first quote, but indeed
does not "increment" the quoting on later replies. I will report that
on the git project for this software, and hopefully the author will
take note and correct.
Great. I just saw you created an issue on the repo. ;-)
Not sure why you'd choose to; old laptops make wonderful BBSes. You can tuekI would love to run it under a raspberry pi. I turn off my monitor and turn off other appliances to neutralize the energy costs in my room.
them in most anywhere, they have good power management, so you can
throttle
it down when idle, and they have a built-in UPS.
Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-
Well, Gas heat (HVAC so electrical blower), my bills are/were about 75$
a month in winter. Right now on sunny days or middling cloudy, I
generate much more than I consume. It was only turned on on 29Nov and this season is pretty cloudy here. Cant really tell but suspect bill
will be 25$ or so? (partial month and only 3 clear days).
But maybe Lee Lofaso is more like Donald Trump, who apparently does not
understand such things and likes to make trouble.
The entity known as Lee Lofaso is a figment of somebody's wild
and overactive imagination.
Yes, we all know that, Beeeorn.
Allen Prunty was the last elected moderator of this area. I don't know what has become of him but I don't think he had any probationaryHe is more focused on fighting his cancer battle and his diabetes. I did also offer to pay one of his medications.
sysops hanging around.
When I started my BBS, one of my aims was to be connected to
anything and everything I could. This last month I've dropped a
lot of networks. All of Gerts (Familynet, STN, Linuxnet, Gatornet,
etc), Starnet and Sportsnet shut shop as did combatnet. This is
something I do agree on. There's too many
I was the same way when I started in late '93... early '94. Nowadays
there is too much supply, not enough demand. Its tempting to drop all
of them here.
22 years ago, we had the posters to justify all those othernets. I had like 6-8 from the USA/CAN and 2-3 from the UK back in those glory days.
Nick Andre wrote to Matt Munson <=-
My favourite was watching all the Lord and Tradewars addicts slam my
board exactly at midnight every night to play their turns. Hilarious...
The time he was challenged to prove he understood what a BBS was by
logging in to a board, he didn't... he just posted a message from
another stupid NNTP site in Finland. He's never called any other board.
Ever.
I have a record of him posting messages from 3:800/432 -- probability in 2003.
On 02-11-23 22:34, Lee Lofaso <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Truly Bad Behavior <=-
The time he was challenged to prove he understood what a BBS was by
logging in to a board, he didn't... he just posted a message from
another stupid NNTP site in Finland. He's never called any other board.
Ever.
I have a record of him posting messages from 3:800/432 -- probability in 2003.
You should check them. Then you will know the truth.
Lee Lofaso wrote to Dale Shipp <=-
That's right. One lunatic is bad enough. But two of them, teaming
up together, was just too much for any sysop to handle.
Bj”rn Felten did what any other sysop would do. He reminded the whiner that a sysop is lord and master of his own board.
That's right. One lunatic is bad enough. But two of them, teaming
up together, was just too much for any sysop to handle.
So you are chastising someone for their behavior but then admitting to bad,
and possibly intentional, behavior of your own? Nice.
Bj”rn Felten did what any other sysop would do. He reminded the LL>whinerthat a sysop is lord and master of his own board.
I am sure you did.
Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Dan Clough <=-
Re: Re: Bad behaviour not wanted.
By: Dan Clough to August Abolins on Thu Nov 17 2022 07:54 am
complete and utter clusterf**k. Effectively not readable
due to format mangling, lack of quoting, and general
stupidity.
You keep ignoring the fact that your first instance of a
complaint in LITRGP was based on a quoting issue due to
Aftershock, and not Tg. I agree with your latter point though;
since your participation, stupidity has emerged.
I don't know (or care) what Aftershock is, and either way, whether it's that or TG, or both, the end result is: The echo is trashed and basically un-useable by those using "traditional" Fidonet software / message reading tools. Your claim that I'm stupid is just sour grapes
at being called out on it. Anyone can see that I'm telling the truth by simply trying to read messages in that group. It's that simple, simpleton.
Dan, can you tell me why my ASIAN_LINK never had that? We were
in the first few, and we welcome Telegram users. There have been
no issues otherthan a few *early* ones that caused odd tear
lines. They did not affectoperations and were quickly patched by
Stas.
Have you considered checking/reading echomail more often than once a
month? I've been all through this and don't feel like re-hashing it yet again. Read the complete thread.
... All the easy problems have been solved.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Dan Clough <=-
complete and utter clusterf**k. Effectively not readable
due to format mangling, lack of quoting, and general
stupidity.
You keep ignoring the fact that your first instance of a
complaint in LITRGP was based on a quoting issue due to
Aftershock, and not Tg. I agree with your latter point though;
since your participation, stupidity has emerged.
I don't know (or care) what Aftershock is, and either way, whether it's that or TG, or both, the end result is: The echo is trashed and basically un-useable by those using "traditional" Fidonet software / message reading tools. Your claim that I'm stupid is just sour grapes
at being called out on it. Anyone can see that I'm telling the truth by simply trying to read messages in that group. It's that simple, simpleton.
Dan, can you tell me why my ASIAN_LINK never had that? We were
in the first few, and we welcome Telegram users. There have been
no issues otherthan a few *early* ones that caused odd tear
lines. They did not affectoperations and were quickly patched by
Stas.
Have you considered checking/reading echomail more often than once a
month? I've been all through this and don't feel like re-hashing it yet again. Read the complete thread.
Why should I Dan?
If you can't explain it, then it never happened.
| Sysop: | Fercho |
|---|---|
| Lugar: | La Plata, Buenos Aires |
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| Nodos: | 10 (0 / 10) |
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